| abstract | - __NOWYSIWYG__ Standard formatting apparently dictates that we end all sentence fragments used as captions for images included in pages with a period, despite the fact that punctuation should only be used to end complete sentences. For example, our Steamship page has an image with the caption "The steamship that Korra and Naga stowed away on when traveling to Republic City." As well all know, that caption contains a subject but no verb and therefore is not a complete sentence. It is currently a wiki-wide policy that we end all captions with periods, regardless of whether or not it's the grammatically correct thing to do. I propose that we change the policy so that fragments are not ended in periods. That way, we don't violate one of the basic rules our elementary school teachers drilled into our heads. I know I'm new, and I don't mean to offend anyone by just showing up and demanding change. I simply thought this should be done. 20:49, August 25, 2013 (UTC) It's an interesting proposal, and I agree, but I have to point out that 'stowed' is the past tense form of the verb 'stow', and thus that example might not be enitrely reflective of the point you're trying to make. 21:12, August 25, 2013 (UTC) Yes, "stowed" is a verb, but it's modifying the steamship. What I should have said is that no action is being committed. The sentence does not read "The steamship stowed," but rather "the steamship that stowed." 21:16, August 25, 2013 (UTC) You know, I've always been iffy about that caption anyway... How would the sentence go then, if it were to be complete? In some cases, having an action be performed is impractical. If you find such sentences, you are allowed to rewrite them, too, because there's obviously an issue with it that no one else caught, or thought about. 21:26, August 25, 2013 (UTC) Then I suppose there are two solutions. We could delete periods at the end of fragments or change fragments into sentences, such as "This steamship stowed Korra and Mako." I think I prefer the former, though. I know it's a lot of work, so I'm offering to do the vast majority of the changes myself. 21:29, August 25, 2013 (UTC) To be honest, I find that the current method is adequate. Yes, there is no "action" word, but it's still a verb, and so the sentence is technically valid. 21:36, August 25, 2013 (UTC) If this ultimately comes down to whether or not the example I provided is a sentence, it isn't. A fragment can have a subject-verb relationship and still not be a sentence, because the verb has been subordinated to another idea by a dependent word and so cannot stand by itself. It is not a sentence because nothing is being done. 21:40, August 25, 2013 (UTC) Before I get into my opinion on this matter, I'd just like to say that the thumbnail for the steamship image is not a valid sentence, like Snoopy said. The way I like to look at it is a little simpler: "The steamship that Korra and Naga stowed away on when traveling to Republic City." What did the steamship do? The steamship didn't stow, that's what Korra and Naga did. According to that fragment, the steamship did nothing. Second, I agree with the change in policy. 22:06, August 25, 2013 (UTC) There is a subject (the steamship) a verb (stowed) and and object (Republic City). I must be misunderstanding something because, to me, that's a valid sentence. The steamship did nothing, yes, but there is still an action being performed. 22:11, August 25, 2013 (UTC) The steamship caption is, in fact, a fragment. Not any noun can be the subject. The steamship itself would be the subject, but it is not performing an action. The mere presence of both a verb and a noun does not create a sentence. The verb stowed is only modifying the steamship. "Which steamship?" "It's the steamship that stowed." It is a fragment. Therefore, if it appeared anywhere in the text of the page, it would most likely be reshaped into a complete sentence. We certainly wouldn't leave a fragment with a period ending it anywhere in the text of a main space page, a fanon page, or a policy page. I don't see why we ignore that rule when it comes to captions for images then. I support this. 22:13, August 25, 2013 (UTC) The validity of this particular sentence is beside the point, though it is most certainly a fragment. We should try to keep the discussion about the proposed change to remove periods from fragments. Does everyone agree so far? 22:19, August 25, 2013 (UTC) I don't particularly see the point of changing the policy for the image captions, but for the sake of consistency, I'd rather vote for adaption the minority to follow the majority as opposed to the other way around as this forum is proposing. The majority of image captions are proper sentences, and thus it makes more sense to rewrite the few that are fragments to be full sentences. That way, no change needs to be made to the policy and the grammatical rules are followed. 22:31, August 25, 2013 (UTC) While I definitely prefer your idea over leaving the situation alone, I still don't think it's the best solution. For instance, say a caption is "A typical Water Tribe fur coat." To me, changing it to "This is a typical Water Tribe fur coat." sounds silly. I'm not necessarily asking for a big overhaul in policy. In fact, I'm not proposing we add anything new. All I'm saying is that we should remove whatever it is that forces us to put periods at the end of sentence fragments. 22:40, August 25, 2013 (UTC) And to be clear, I was not suggesting that we would take the sentences in captions and change them to fragments, or "bringing the majority to the minority," as you put it. I only wish to remove the periods from the already-existing fragments. 22:44, August 25, 2013 (UTC) So what you are basically proposing then is to remove a standard and allow for both fragments and sentences to be in the image caption, thus effectively remove any harmony that we have there? Not really in favor of that, so I'm still supporting then just rewriting the current fragments to be more descriptive sentences. That can easily be done without it having to sound silly. That way, we would get rid of the grammar inconsistency and be more descriptive while maintaining our harmony, a win-win on every level if you ask me. 22:49, August 25, 2013 (UTC) The harmony you are trying to preserve is already gone, because as it is now we have both sentences and fragments in image captions. Removing the periods where they don't belong doesn't change that. 22:55, August 25, 2013 (UTC) Not really, the harmony we have now is "we use periods at the end of each caption", not "we don't use fragments". Your proposal is to get rid of those periods -for valid reason, not contesting that. However, the solution does not need to be to get rid of the harmony, it can just be fixed by some minor rewriting. 22:57, August 25, 2013 (UTC) One of the images here is Aang as a newborn. The caption is, appropriately, "Aang as a newborn." I just don't see how that could be changed into a sentence without sounding awkward or silly. In my opinion, it would be much more efficient to simply nix the period. I don't feel that any harmony is threatened by that. 23:01, August 25, 2013 (UTC) "Being born at the exact time of Roku's passing, the Avatar spirit reincarnated into Aang." Not awkward or silly at all if you ask me. The fact that some image captions will and then others will not have a period is exactly what is moving away from a harmonized standard. There are cases where that is necessarily, but this is not one of them as it is perfectly feasible to have all the captions make perfect sense, both content as grammar-wise. 23:07, August 25, 2013 (UTC) Having a period at the end of fragments looks awkward for an encyclopedic model, and the same goes for having some images with periodless captions and some with sentences that have periods at the end. I agree with LL on this. -- 23:11, August 25, 2013 (UTC) While I don't mind converting all fragments to segments, I prefer the other option. My one issue with LL's idea is this: in order to make the sentence not awkward, it has to be long. I think at a certain point lengthy captions in thumbnails become unsightly. I also see no harm done by ending sentences with periods and fragments with nothing. That's what grammar dictates and I don't think it makes us look bad in any way. 23:13, August 25, 2013 (UTC) They wouldn't all have to be much longer to not be awkward. That was one example. -- 23:16, August 25, 2013 (UTC) If that's the case, then perhaps we have to consider captioning it something else. For example, that might be the steamship that Korra and Naga stowed on, but it had other purposes. "Steamships are used to transport goods and people across the globe." 23:17, August 25, 2013 (UTC) From my point of view, the idea of a caption sans the period just looks awkward, and as LL said, it's disruptive of the current harmony we have established for captioning. I agree with the rewrite of fragments instead of just tossing the punctuation out. 23:24, August 25, 2013 (UTC) (ec)All right, let's take the first photo on this month's featured article. "Katara's necklace." There is no verb there an thus should not have the period. If we were to make a sentence for that picture, it would become something like, "Katara's necklace given to her by her mother." It is longer, and provides information that is unneeded. I'd also like to point out that even on Wikipedia, the no period for a fragment rule exists, as shown by the LEGO set picture on the left. I don't see what the big deal with not having periods is, imo, it doesn't look awkward. Srijay K - TechFilmer 23:37, August 25, 2013 (UTC) Alright. As long as something is being done by this horrid fragment/period situation, then I can't complain. I don't mind solving it in a way other than what I had in mind. If unity among captions is what we're aiming for, then I'm all for it. It also makes sense to convert the minority to the majority. However, are we sure that the majority of captions are already sentences? To me, it looks like the majority are fractions. We could, hypothetically, make them all period-less fragments. 23:40, August 25, 2013 (UTC) Snoopy is right, most of the image captions are fragments. I'd be willing to bet that if you press random page, most of the page's image captions will be fragments. I think it would be more aesthetically pleasing to just remove end punctuation from fragment image captions. Would it really look that weird to have some image captions with period and some without? At first, maybe, but that would only because we are used to them all having periods. I think it would turn out to be entirely normal, just like message walls have worn from weird replacements for talk pages to everyday wiki use, as the first example that comes to mind. 00:45, August 26, 2013 (UTC) That really depends from page to page then, as that's certainly not the case on character pages. This is not a matter of "getting used to" like the message wall comparison, which really is completely besides the point. This is a matter of harmonized format in the image captions, and yes it would look weird. If not only because the first logical reaction would be to think that every sentence needs a period at the end. Yes, grammatically, it's not a sentence, but the vast majority would not know that and think it's an oversight that there is no period at the end. Anyway, I stand by my opposition and given reasons for keeping the periods. 00:52, August 26, 2013 (UTC) Well, to clarify, you're not simply in favor of leaving it alone, are you? I'm fine with any solution that results in these captions becoming grammatically correct. Changing every fragment into a sentence is infinitely better than doing nothing, so if that's the compromise we're going to make count me in. 00:55, August 26, 2013 (UTC) I'm pro making it grammatically correct, but I'm also pro maintaining the standard harmony of having a period behind each caption. 00:57, August 26, 2013 (UTC) Then I think we have a deal. 01:00, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
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